Do you want a fulfilling love and sex life but find yourself in never ending fights and avoiding intimacy altogether?
Listen to “Creating a fulfilling, satisfying sex life: emotional security and sexual intimacy” – Episode 63 on the “All Things Love and Intimacy” Podcast
This is episode goes over CRUCIAL conversations you need to get your sex and love life back on track.
Key takeaways from the episode:
How important communication is in enhancing sexual intimacy between partners
What role foreplay has in a fulfilling sexual experience and how time can vary for a partner’s needs
What aftercare is and why it’s just as important as foreplay
How couples can address and overcome mismatches in their need for physical touch
Katie Ziskind of @wisdomwithinct specializes in helping disconnected couples who want to work together after high conflict fights, affairs, sexual avoidance, and sexual rejection to develop a foundation of emotional connection, trust, love, and gain sex positive skills to understand foreplay, sexual pleasure, rebuild sexual desire, connect to their sexual, erotic playful side.
Katie Ziskind helps couples feel safe and excited emotionally and sexually about growing together. She gives you a safe place to talk about how your strict, conservative, religious upbringing has lead to feelings of shame, guilt, fear, avoidance, lack of satisfaction, and anxiety around sex and shift into reconnecting to sexual pleasure. She helps couples get familiar and comfortable talking about sex and gain sex positive education.
Noteworthy quotes from this episode:
[8:45] “Sometimes we grow up in a strict conservative and religious upbringing, where we get no education on sex, and then we also get misinformation. Like sometimes we learn that like sex toys are bad or masturbation is bad and it’s like none of those things are inherently bad. We just don’t learn about how they can be tools to learn about ourselves or to build desire.
[15:18] “we’re very groomed in society to like, You know, pay the bills or like go grocery shopping and you know, take the kids to soccer practice and those are beautiful things that are publicly socially acceptable but you know, we’re not taught from a young age: hey, like, let’s talk about what areas on your partner’s body that they really like touched or what areas do you like touched and how can you vocalize that”
Connect with Katie
Book a free phone consult to work with me at
Key takeaways from the episode:
How important communication is in enhancing sexual intimacy between partners
What role foreplay has in a fulfilling sexual experience and how time can vary for a partner’s needs
What aftercare is and why it’s just as important as foreplay
How couples can address and overcome mismatches in their need for physical touchKatie Ziskind specializes in helping disconnected couples who want to work together after high conflict fights, affairs, sexual avoidance, and sexual rejection to develop a foundation of emotional connection, trust, love, and gain sex positive skills to understand foreplay, sexual pleasure, rebuild sexual desire, connect to their sexual, erotic playful side. Katie helps couples feel safe and excited emotionally and sexually about growing together. She gives you a safe place to talk about how your strict, conservative, religious upbringing has lead to feelings of shame, guilt, fear, avoidance, lack of satisfaction, and anxiety around sex and shift into reconnecting to sexual pleasure. She helps couples get familiar and comfortable talking about sex and gain sex positive education.
Noteworthy quotes from this episode:[8:45] “Sometimes we grow up in a strict conservative and religious upbringing, where we get no education on sex, and then we also get misinformation. Like sometimes we learn that like sex toys are bad or masturbation is bad and it’s like none of those things are inherently bad. We just don’t learn about how they can be tools to learn about ourselves or to build desire.[15:18] “we’re very groomed in society to like, You know, pay the bills or like go grocery shopping and you know, take the kids to soccer practice and those are beautiful things that are publicly socially acceptable but you know, we’re not taught from a young age: hey, like, let’s talk about what areas on your partner’s body that they really like touched or what areas do you like touched and how can you vocalize that”Connect with KatieBook a free phone consult to work with me at www.WisdomWithinCt.comInstagram.com/WisdomWithinCt
I have a sex and intimacy course on teachable that therapists and couples wanting help with pleasure, sexual confidence, orgasming and sexual intimacy can take for $20. Check it out https://sex-and-intimacy-course.teachable.com
Connect with Paige Bond
Instagram: @paigebondcoaching
Facebook: @paigebondcoaching
TikTok: @paigebondcoaching
Website: https://paigebond.com
Paige Bond hosts the Stubborn Love podcast, is a Licensed Marriage Therapist, and a Polyamory Relationship Coach. Her mission is to help people-pleasing millennials navigate non-monogamy so they can tame their jealousy and love with ease. Her own journey from feeling lonely, insecure, and jealous to feeling empowered and reassured is what fuels her passion to help other people-pleasers to conquer jealousy and embrace love.
Free Jealousy Workbook:
http://www.paigebond.com/calm-the-chaos-jealousy-workbook-download
Free People Pleasing Workbook:
https://www.paigebond.com/people-pleasing-workbook
Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.
Mental Health Resources: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255SAMHSA’s National Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741 for free, 24/7 crisis counseling.
Intro music by Coma-Media on pixabay.com
Transcript
(generated by AI – please excuse errors)
[00:01:13] Paige Bond, LMFT: Welcome back listeners to another episode of Stubborn Love. My name is Paige Bond, and I’m your host today. We have Katie Ziskind, who is just a woman of all trades. I mean, gosh, you’re a licensed marriage and family therapist, you are trained in the Gottman Method, and are a certified sex therapy informed professional, uh, which is mainly what we’re going to be talking about today. About sex, sex positivity, how to really create that fulfilling love life and sex life with the support of how the emotional aspect is a really big, important part of it.
So before we get down to all the nitty gritty, why don’t you introduce yourself to listeners, Katie, and talk about, like, how you got on this journey to be specializing in this area of sex.
[00:02:03] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: I am so excited to be here with you, Paige. Thank you so much for the introduction. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, but I focus with both emotional bonding and emotional intimacy, and sex positive education and sexual intimacy.
So, whether it’s feeling sexually rejected, or wanting to regain sexual playfulness, or just feeling a sense of closeness in your relationship, um, I love helping couples work from both ends, the emotional intimacy and the sexual intimacy side. And we don’t often have a safe place to talk about this stuff, so I’m really excited to connect with you today and with your listeners.
[00:02:43] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, in my head, as you were saying that, I’m like, check, check, check. That’s probably 75 percent of relationships.
So, this is going to be a good episode. Um, before we start talking about all of the details on how to do those things, can you tell people how you really got into this specific niche or niche, however people like to say it, right, um, of specializing in sexual reconnection and stuff?
[00:03:10] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, so, um, you know, in my grad program, there were different add on classes, you know, sex therapy class or specific couples counseling classes. So I would take those, but then after grad school, I was in my private practice and working with kids and teens. Um. And really just saw a need for a specialization with couples.
So as I’ve worked more and more with couples over the years, couples need to talk about sex. Anytime you’re doing couples therapy or working with people who are in relationships, sex is a huge piece. And a lot of the couples would, you know, avoid talking about it because it was such an emotionally charged topic or avoid it because it would start a fight. And so there is a component of companionship that’s necessary in a long term connection, and there’s also this desire for open sexual expression and sexual vulnerability and erotic expression. And a lot of times when we get together, we’re very cultured to, you know, have kids or get married or, you know, have a good job and, and those things can be awesome too.
But those can be a shift to take off those hats, and then shift into expressing your erotic, playful, primal, organic side. Um, so, as I started working with couples, I was like, it’s so important, especially even after affair and infidelity issues, or if there’s been, a traumatic birth experience or, you know, you name it.
There can be a desire for comfort and reassurance through physical intimacy that often we just don’t address.
So I love talking with couples about everything from desire discrepancies, to just having a safe place to talk about giving and receiving oral sex, to exploring pleasure and knowing pleasure is an okay and awesome thing to experience without feeling guilty or, you know, sex can be, uh, consensual, respectful, playful, and a quality activity that is a normal and regular part of life.
And we often also have different meanings around sex. So as I was working with couples and really specializing with couples, um, I started to dive deeper into the physical intimacy and sex positivity realms.
[00:05:27] Paige Bond, LMFT: Uh, and it is so needed because you’re right. I think this does impact so many people, especially when they have relationships that are transitioning roles, right?
Going from, you know, these fun, maybe carefree, people who are child free moving into, Oh my gosh, now we have like so many other responsibilities. How do we fit this in? And then maybe it can be a very long time between having sex, compared to when you were child free. Um, there’s so many places to go with what you just talked about.
So, um, it’s hard to pick, but I think I want to start with like. Okay, how do we have the uncomfortable conversation? Like, how do we even get started? Like, there’s probably this tension or awkwardness of, like, Okay, I know there’s a problem here, but, like, what do we do about it?
How do I bring it up? Can you kind of walk us through, like, what would be the best way to approach that when we know there’s an issue but we’re afraid to talk about it? But how do we talk about sex?
[00:06:32] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, so usually couples get stuck in a cycle of rejection and avoidance. So, one person, let’s say one person has a higher sex drive or a desirous physical touch to feel safe and connected and bonded.
Um, they’ll kind of be stuck in this always initiating. They’re always trying to grab their partner’s hand and their partner’s always pulling their hand away. Or they’re going in for a kiss and their partner’s like, I’m too tired. So there’s this cycle that they get stuck in and one person becomes the avoidant, sexually avoidant partner.
And one person gets stuck feeling sexually unwanted and sexually rejected. And so that can create resentment, it can create conflicts in other areas of life, um, and so what I would recommend is sharing what Sex means to you, and when I say sex, we’re not talking about just penetrative sex, we’re talking about kissing, sexual activities, even holding hands, a long hug, spooning, cuddling, anything related to expressing your erotic self and feeling wanted and desired and seen and valued in that way.
Which we all want to be seen, you know, we all want to be seen as attractive, we all want to be, especially from our significant others, or significant others. So. I would sit down with your partner and I would say something like, when you look at me and you desire me through your eyes, and when you reach for my hand or when you caress my low back, like, I feel like I matter to you.
I feel like the whole world slows down. I feel like the chaos of my work life just stops. And when you touch me, it’s so incredibly special for me. I feel special to you. And when we don’t have these small gentle touches and affectionate touches, I actually feel so insignificant, lonely, and unwanted. And I just wanted to let you know that I really need more hugs for comfort.
I really need us to not just have a peck on the lips. I need us to make out like we did 5, 10, 15 years ago, you know, so being able to playfully express it. Um, and also working with a specialist, such as myself, or having a safe place where you can talk about, um, apprehensions you both have.
Sometimes we grow up in a strict conservative and religious upbringing, where we get no education on sex, and then we also get misinformation. Like sometimes we learn that like sex toys are bad or masturbation is bad and it’s like none of those things are inherently bad. We just don’t learn about how they can be tools to learn about ourselves or to build desire.
So sharing the emotional experience that you have when you feel your partner pull away from you can be a really great way to start to rebuild a shared sense of meaning and co create meaning around touch.
[00:09:20] Paige Bond, LMFT: I love how you explained it in like, you essentially gave listeners a literal script that they can use.
[00:09:27] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Haha!
[00:09:28] Paige Bond, LMFT: That was great.
[00:09:29] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, sometimes like, we don’t know because we all have different meanings around touch. Like one person could feel really special, excited, and loved through holding hands. Another person could just be like, maybe they weren’t hugged a lot as a child. Maybe they never saw their own parents or caregivers show affection.
And so their sense of normal is just talking about the mortgage. And reading a book on opposite sides of the couch. Like, we all have different needs when it comes to affection. So, you’re co creating a marriage and you’re also understanding what helps you both feel loved. So, being able to express admiration and fondness, not only verbally, but also through touch is really healthy.
[00:10:13] Paige Bond, LMFT: Mm hmm. Definitely agree there. And I’m curious how you work with, let’s say, a couple system in this instance, is it always on the partner who is desiring the more touch? And saying like, Hey, I’m coming to you and I want this because it makes me feel special because I feel more connected to you.
Because I can imagine that feeling like a lot of pressure on them because they’re likely already trying to do a lot of the initiating of sexual touch anyways, and so it also initiating that conversation, I can imagine just put another layer of just frustration and just heaviness for them. Does it always fall on that partner who is desiring the more, or how else could this conversation be started?
[00:11:01] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, so sometimes the higher desire partner that feels rejected or frustrated reaches out to me. Because it does create conflicts emotionally in the relationship, right? So, if we’re struggling emotionally with some other things and getting into arguments all those things are great reasons to reach out.
So sometimes we do some digging. Let’s say a partner is feeling sexually avoidant, like they may need 45 to 90 minutes of foreplay before penetrative sex is considered. So as we’re having this conversation one thing I always ask the couples I work with is tell me about your last sexual experience.
And a lot of times, like I’m not generalizing, but more often than not, it’s we kissed for two minutes and then we had penetrative sex. And so the entire experience was like eight minutes. And it’s often not satisfying for a vulva owner or a female. Females need 45 to 90 minutes of foreplay. And the foreplay is really the core of the sexual experience, that’s what builds excitement, builds desire.
There’s an emotional intimacy experience in foreplay. It allows for the mind body connection. And so we offer, I offer sex positive education. The male body or a penis owner really only needs like four to 5 minutes, maybe 8 minutes of foreplay, um, before reaching that same level of sexual arousal.
So, a lot of times we’re talking about how to lengthen foreplay. Foreplay could be sending sexy texts throughout the day while you’re at work. You know, it can start even before you get together. It can be cuddling on the couch. You know, instead of sitting on opposite sides of the couch, like, spooning, like, who cares if your six year old is on the other couch, like, you are, your bodies are connecting.
It could be doing massages for each other, exploring erogenous zones, gentle grazing of the fingertips, gentle caressing on various parts of the body, um, the scalp, the inner wrists, the breasts, the nipples, right, the belly, the inner thighs, the feet. We have so many different areas of our body on our landscape on our skin that we often skip over or we miss.
We’re just so focused on like penetrative sex. And so a big piece of creating more satisfying, enjoyable, pleasurable, comforting, exciting sexual experiences is creating more before penetrative sex is even considered and we don’t have to end that way. Sometimes even in the conversation, anyone in the relationship starts to have a voice.
So saying, hey, actually, you know, I would prefer this or I’d really like to take a bath or a shower with you or, you know, I really like it when the lights are low. they’re all different elements. We all have sensory elements. Um, sometimes it’s, hey, we need to get like a fuzzy waterproof blanket so that, you know, if I squirt I have less anxiety.
I’m constantly thinking about ruining the bedsheets, right? Like whatever is on your mind, you know, hey, I want to use lube. Like, you know, there’s a lot of communication that is beautiful that starts to unfold when we talk about Sex. Some couples, it’s talking just openly and having a safe place to explore fantasies, or talking about reading erotic books, or, you know, doing a yes no maybe list, right, and being imaginative, and, and talking about orgasming.
So there’s so many avenues it can go, but it starts to open up that dialogue. It’s a beautiful, intimate experience.
[00:14:28] Paige Bond, LMFT: I mean, frick, I feel like I’m in a session with you right now and I’m getting excited about all these possibilities. But what I hear you saying is at the root of it, this is just the basis of using communication skills, it’s just talking about a different topic than the dishes or who’s taking the kids to ball practice or whatever.
It’s using your communication skills, expressing your desires. And negotiating what works for both of you. I love that. And I love how you touched on all the different ways that we can like start to charge that erotic energy. And it got me thinking when you were talking about all of these different parts of the body, how our skin is the largest organ.
Why are we not making good use of it?
[00:15:17] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: It’s true. Yeah, I mean, and it’s, it’s often, you know, we’re very groomed in society to like, You know, pay the bills or like go grocery shopping and you know, take the kids to soccer practice and those are beautiful things that are publicly socially acceptable but you know, we’re not taught from a young age.
Hey, like, let’s talk about what areas on your partner’s body that they really like touched or what areas do you like touched and how can you vocalize that and you know, let’s really take some time to explore what feels good and textures, right? All the times a day, right? How can we relax to receive pleasure?
Even things like side effects of medication can play a role in low libido issues or desire issues and
[00:16:04] Paige Bond, LMFT: I’m kind of curious about that, how, and I want to also get to emotional safety too. We’re definitely going to talk about that, but also talking about, you know, what if we are taking medication, you know, as, as the partner and not being able to perform well either physically or maybe just not in the emotional headspace for it.
And how that can have an impact on the sex life. How do we work with that? You know, as the, as the partner who is maybe desiring that more, but the person taking the medication either can’t perform or is uninterested in the same preference or desire.
[00:16:40] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, I think you bring up two really important things.
So, you know, just disclaimer. Um, go to your psychiatrist or physician to make any medication changes, um, but a lot of times when someone’s prescribed a medication, they’re not really told the side effects. They’re given like a four page document in size six font from Rite Aid or Walgreens and we’re told to read that.
So usually the side effects come and we’re like, oh, why am I feeling nauseous or why do I no longer want to have sex or why is my mouth dry? Right? So then we start to have these side effects. We’re googling them, but, um, SSRI medications or antidepressant medications do have a side effect of low libido.
Holistically you can exercise every day, you can work on your gut brain connection and nutrition, you can start to surround yourself with holistic people and work with your psychiatrist, you may come down to a lower dose. you never want to stop taking an SSRI medication, cold turkey, it can lead to suicidal thinking and major mood changes.
But even things like fast acting anti anxiety medications like benzodiazepines or Klonopin, they’re like almost in a way a sedative. So, they’re gonna kind of keep you from having a panic attack, but you, you may struggle to even be excited sexually as a result. and those are typically not a daily prescription.
Those are they’re highly addictive, so they’re typically an as needed, and we also have like another medication, like even allergy medications or anti mucus medications, like if people have a lot of phlegm, they’ll, or like allergies, they’ll take, um, allergy meds, but those actually drive the mucus, so then sometimes people can experience vaginal dryness, especially when it comes to using sex toys or being fingered or it can be a struggle to enjoy penetrative sex. so definitely using lubricant and really having that good communication with your partner saying, you know, I don’t want you to, you know, touch me yet, I need more foreplay and really understanding that like lubricants are amazing and can help you have that more smooth connection down there.
But yeah, um, they can naturally dry that vaginal wetness that comes with organic arousal.
[00:18:52] Paige Bond, LMFT: Thank you so much for really touching on the negative side effects that medications can have that maybe doctors don’t have the time to go over with patients, because I think you’re right. A lot of times we’re not educated on these things.
One thing that you mentioned just now is talking about, hey, maybe I need more time before we have penetrative sex. Uh, can I use some lube? I’m thinking about the partner hearing that and going into a shame spiral of feeling rejected. How do we work with that to make sure that doesn’t happen?
How do we make sure that, well, I guess maybe sometimes we can’t always prevent rejection, but I’m sure there are some better ways to help listeners know how to work with that so that people still feel more connected in the moment.
[00:19:40] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, that is a beautiful point. So shame, guilt, anxiety, fear, fear of inadequacy are all valid emotions that come up when we talk about sexual activities and giving and receiving pleasure.
It’s really important just to communicate honestly, you know, to talk calmly and, even history of past trauma can bring these things up. So, you know, for instance, um, a partner is saying, Hey, like I need more foreplay. That is a great thing that your partner is speaking up. That’s a wonderful thing that your partner feels safe to say, Hey, like this is my need.
It doesn’t mean what you’re doing is inadequate. It just means that they want you to do more of what you’re currently doing. So keep doing what you’re doing for just like 30 more minutes. And you could say, Hey, You know, how much longer? They could say 30 minutes. You could say, okay, you know, maybe, I don’t know, your arm’s falling asleep.
You could, you could then voice and say, hey, I need us to change positions. Could we roll over to the other side? You know, there’s a beautiful conversation, and I also think, too, like, a lot of us, when we grow up in strict conservative religious upbringings, we turn to pornography for sexual education. And pornography is not good or bad.
It’s a form of erotic stimulus, so it can arouse you and turn you on, but it doesn’t show adequate or real or, like, fact based educational experiences. So a lot of times from pornography, especially if that’s where you get your sex education, you think you have to live up to what you see in porn. And porn also doesn’t show communication.
If you’re watching porn, you don’t have to talk to your partner. You don’t have to navigate different smells or the human range of emotions. During a sexual experience, trauma could come up. Your partner could get tearful. Your partner could say, oh man, like, my bo I’m having struggles with my body image, like, could you just compliment me?
Like, we never see that in porn. So, porn is like Hollywood. It’s like looking at a romance comedy movie and saying, that’s what I want for marriage! Like, that’s a part of marriage, but, uh, like, we often are misled and misinformed by what we see in porn. So, porn can be an erotic stimulus, but it is not an accurate depiction of the exchange of human emotions.
We might laugh, we might cry, we might fart, we might, you know, have bloopers. We are human beings. Porn doesn’t show adequate foreplay. That 45 to 90 minutes of foreplay is a minimum. Porn also doesn’t show aftercare. So, aftercare is just as important as foreplay. It’s, a time for bonding and connection and taking care of each other and nurturing each other after a sexual experience that really helps with balancing the elevated chemicals of dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin in the brain.
sometimes if we don’t have enough aftercare, we can have almost like a crash.
[00:22:35] Paige Bond, LMFT: I have even more questions after that. Like, um, can you talk a little bit about what exactly could be examples of aftercare? Um, since that’s not really shown in porn for us to be educated on.
[00:22:49] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: I’ll give an example of like, what not to do sometimes when couples come in. We have a sexual experience and then the moment it ends, one person runs off and starts working on their laptop or goes to play video games in another part of the house and we’re just like, disconnected immediately after.
So don’t do that. Cuddling naked. Complimenting each other’s bodies, eye gazing, taking a shower, taking a bath, uh, and this isn’t just like a quick little five minute shower where we jump in and jump out, it’s like maybe you wash each other’s bodies with body wash or, um, you’re still kind of playing with each other’s bodies, you’re talking about the parts of your sexual experience that were really arousing. You know, I really loved it when you ran your fingertips over this part of my body, or I really loved watching your eyelids flutter when I was kissing your neck or kissing this part of your body or the sounds you make just really turn me on.
It’s like so fun to hear the sounds that I can get out of your body that no one else can. Talk about what felt good, you know, like it’s, it’s a beautiful thing to talk about the experiences you’ve just had, just had, and that can also be a form of foreplay, like you can find yourself getting aroused again from talking about and reliving those beautiful memories.
Talk about what you’d like to do again, what was different, you know, if something didn’t feel good, hey, this didn’t really feel so good for me, the way in which I would like to receive pleasure in the future would be this. you know, it’s okay to really share with your partner, like, Hey, like, when we did this, like, that didn’t really feel that great.
So I’d like to do this differently next time. Or even, you know, if you’re trying out different lubes, like, How’d you like the silicone lube? Where’s the water based lube? Or what was it like this time of day, you know, you might say, hey, like, it’s kind of late at night, like, could we try doing this two hours earlier, like, all these things are totally normal. you know, saying, hey, you know, I want to use these sex toys in the future, or I loved the feeling of the sex toy, there’s just so much.
sometimes we also have experiences that don’t go the way we want, um, this can happen when we have different sexual histories, so one partner may have had really positive sexual experiences or nurturing sexual experiences. And someone else may have had sexual trauma or really scary or fear based sexual experiences rooted in unwanted touch or just not have very many sexual experiences. So when we have that, which is super common, um, that we want to talk about it.
Hey, how’d this feel? You know, what was it like when you experience this? And be playful, you know, sexual energy and letting your erotic self out can be liberating. Um, it can be a beautiful way to bond, but it can also be really hard to do if you have a lot on your mind.
So the mind is your biggest sex toy.
[00:25:50] Paige Bond, LMFT: I want to talk a little bit more about that, about the mind being your biggest sex toy. Before we go into that, I want to compliment you on giving some knowledge about the multitude of ways that we can provide aftercare and connection. I feel like it’s so underutilized to compliment each other after a sexual experience, but it’s so amazing.
Like, who doesn’t want to be freaking complimented about how we please our partner? so thank you for bringing that up. But going back to, um, I’m having a brain fart here, so I’m gonna have to cut this out.
[00:26:25] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: I love what you said. Yeah, aftercare can be like having a snack together or, um, you know, just having some food together, like watching a movie, or sitting on each other’s laps, or just, just being together and being present emotionally for each other.
You’re not essentially engaging in sexual activity, but you’re still talking and being there and present. You’re not like, checked out, scrolling on social media, for instance. Yeah. Unless you’re doing it together, looking at one phone together, like, that’s different. Right.
[00:26:57] Paige Bond, LMFT: Well, it gets me thinking about all the little micro communications that we can do to prevent our partner spiraling, because there’s this one part out of a book that Stan Tatkin wrote, and he was talking about how we insert negative biases just like as our normal default mode. Like that’s just what our brains do. And so if I see my partner get up to go shower after sex, or if I see my partner start scrolling on phone after sex, my brain is going to naturally insert a negative thing and make up a negative meaning about it that Maybe they don’t want to be close to me or whatever.
And so I think it’s also important to have a disclaimer and verbalize, Hey, what you’re doing and like kind of state the purpose for it. Right. So that we don’t go into those shame spirals and, you know, start a fight right after a really great sex night. Right. I think that’s so important too. Staying connected and in tune with each other, even in these little, little, little shifts that we do.
But you were saying the brain is your biggest organ, can you talk about how we use this thing upstairs and, um, how impactful it is on a sexual experience?
[00:28:06] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, our, we have an emotional and cognitive and intellectual piece to having successful or satisfying, pleasurable, erotic, playful experiences.
So, you know, thinking about, like, if you work for eight hours a day, like, you’ve been wearing that hat for eight hours. So when I work with people to rebuild sexual desire, there’s oftentimes this, uh, mental piece of shifting out of that role. So whether you’re a teacher or a doctor or whatever you do, um, you’re really, you’re really good at what you do, and that’s awesome, and that’s professional, but that’s your professional hat, and a lot of times people bring work home, so now we’re kind of 8 plus hours a day, we’re definitely not sexual, and a lot of times in these professions, it’s like, horribly illegal, like a felony to be erotic, right?
We like, would immediately go to jail. So like, it’s a good thing that you’re professional, and it’s a good thing that you’re very good at your job and have those important boundaries. Like, that’s awesome. But then we have to take this huge shift to like, get in the mood with a sexual partner that we’re also parenting with, that we’re married to, that we’ve had past trauma with, we’ve gotten in yelling fights with, right?
All of these things play a huge role in, in, Sexual expression and sexuality. So being able to ask for reassurance emotionally, being able to express your needs for comfort and intimacy and emotional bonding and emotional security and talking about any unresolved issues. If there is a fight that happened back to two or three months ago, maybe it’s still unresolved and part of essentially like foreplay would be talking about the pain and the loss and betrayal, shock, grief, heartbreak, sadness, how you felt rejected, how you felt jealous, how you felt shameful, guilty, or inadequate, and talking about those emotions is a form of building emotional security, so that’s, that’s a piece that you can help get off your mind.
[00:30:07] Paige Bond, LMFT: That’s a big mindset shift. Like I don’t think people see that as an opportunity to connect and be secure, but that is totally different than I think so many people have it in their minds. Like it’s, Oh, we should avoid the issue. So things don’t get out of hand. Um, let’s just have sex to try to avoid it, right?
Whereas you’re saying it’s, it’s the opposite. You’re like, no, dive into the issue. You’re going to feel closer after that. Yeah.
[00:30:37] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I love what you are saying. Yeah. A lot of times couples too when they come work with me, they’ve been talking about trying to talk about it, like grappling, trying their very hardest, but, uh, they’re doing it by like yelling or criticizing each other and it’s so painful. It creates and escalates that emotional pain and fears of abandonment and sadness and rejection. So I kind of help couples prevent that silent treatment and prevent the withdrawal cycle and prevent the high conflict fights, because usually those are wounds that have happened.
So when we’ve had trauma, maybe we’ve had medical trauma, maybe we’ve had a career change or Or like, uh, been fired from a job, or like, uh, had a parent get sick, or have a sibling that has an addiction issue, or a child that has special needs, or like, all these things, right, can be traumas in a long term relationship that play a role in expression of erotic energy.
So we sometimes just have to talk about those things and validate each other and say, Hey! You know, I need to know that I’m special. I need to know that you value our marriage. I need a little reassurance that you want to work on us. And you can always tell your partner what you love about them and be specific.
Say, I really love da da da. You know, I really love, you can talk about physical qualities, you can talk about cognitive qualities, you can talk about professional. Emotional qualities, friendship elements, right? Verbalize to your partner what you love about them, what you appreciate about them. If your partner was not here tomorrow, what would you miss?
Tell them and verbalize that to your partner. You can never do that enough. That is a form of expressing fondness. Expressing admiration, expressing commitment to your bond, right? A relationship is not something we go to the grocery store and just buy. A good sex life is not, we can’t just go buy a good sex life.
Like, it would be so easy, but we have to co create it. So you’re both authors, or however many people are in your relationship. You’re all authors. You’re authoring this new chapter. And, you know, physically touching, right? Like if you have a chance, hold hands. If you have a chance, make out, like, build that.
Start to create a world in which physical connection is enjoyable for you both. You know, whether it’s, you know, masturbating next to each other or just, it’s letting your partner know that you find them physically attractive. A lot of times couples have body image issues, right? Especially if your, our bodies change during life and You know, no one looks like Barbie.
Our culture emphasizes masculinity as having a six pack and like, rarely do people look like these figures that we’re taught to look like. These airbrush models. Every person’s vulva. Breast. Penis. Everything looks different. It’s different. So we have to really be like, You are so attractive and I am so turned on by your body.
And Your partner might be like, really? Like, completely shocked, right? Like, they may have such a body insecurity that you saying that, they might need you to say it a couple times and for them to believe it, you know?
[00:33:47] Paige Bond, LMFT: I mean, those are just, like, good reminders. I’m probably gonna go yell at my partner after this about how attractive he is.
[00:33:53] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, tell him how, how fine you find him.
[00:33:56] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yes.
You know, I, I have a question about, like, What happens when you get presented with a couple dynamic where one person physical touch is like their lowest love language, like they almost like are revolted by physical touch. just like as a listener question, maybe are they asking, is that normal?
Like, because if they’re dealing with that, if they’re like so anti touch, um, and then number two, what to do about it if they have a partner who is craving that physical touch from them? Because I’m sure you see that dynamic quite a bit.
[00:34:33] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, yeah, it’s so funny. Some couples, like, one person will be like, I could never have sex for the rest of my life and be just fine.
And the other person’s like, uh, like, I don’t know if I could live like that. So, uh, part of this, like, there are many pieces to this pie. But first off, um, Touch is something we all need. And as children, we’re touched and hugged and given pats on the back and held hands with a lot more. So as we age, as we grow older and mature, studies show that we laugh less and we get less touch.
So it’s really important. Actually, touch helps prevent Alzheimer’s. Like, there’s so many mind body components to even just being hugged. That’s why there’s massage in senior centers and stuff because we just don’t get to so touch is actually really, really healthy for us when it’s consensual, when it’s respectful and when it’s pleasurable.
a piece to this is looking at our upbringing. So in our childhood, so a lot of times when we have an aversion to touch, it could be because touch was unsafe and we created an anxious fear response around touch. So there could be sexual trauma or Um a sexual assault or you know incest of some kind so touch then became paired to a negative association Um, we may also have a lack of touch so not necessarily negative But we never got hugged like some parents never say I love you.
Some parents never cuddle their kids and so you grew up maybe with a lot of siblings or your parent had mental health issues and life was chaotic and so you didn’t get touch from a young age. And so touch is just kind of this thing you grew up with not a lot of connection around.
Another piece are sensory issues. So not necessarily everyone’s on the spectrum but sensory issues can play a big role. So if someone has like a caregiving profession or let’s say a mother is breastfeeding, um, there’s already a lot of stimulation going on for the body. And so all of us have different sensory issues. Like I want to normalize, we all have sensitivities.
I’m a highly sensitive person, right? So textures, lights, like even crowds, right? All these things we can be sensitive to, textures on our tongue. But when we have a partner that’s like, I feel love through touch. We do want to understand what safe touch looks like for the relationship to thrive.
Um, because if we’re both in a standoff, we’re not going to have a relationship for very long. Um, So sensory issue wise might mean, um, you know, if you have a, a child that’s constantly on your body, maybe having a babysitter, a relative, or a neighbor watch that child so that you can have a break so your body can be receptive to erotic touch.
Um, also, textures might mean, like, we might want to have good smells in the bedroom, so we might need to wash the sheets or, like, move the pile of dirty gym socks and have really soft sheets. You know, maybe you, like, So if you want a certain texture of sheets, or you want a certain, you know, feeling on your skin related to touch that’s really important for you, um, You know, they’re all different elements related to touch, and so it’s about connecting to what feels good.
So, one way you can connect to yourself and get to know what type of touch you like in a non sexual way, that can become sexual, but in a non sexual way, is to do, it’s called Abhyanka. It’s an Ayurvedic self massage. So, basically, you take some, like, warm oil, and, uh, Winter you use extra virgin sesame oil, in the summer you could use extra virgin coconut oil, and you gently, very slowly, you know, it takes like 15 to 20 minutes, you massage your whole body.
You massage your fingers, your wrist, your forearm, your shoulder, your armpit, your chest, your other arm. You go through your whole body and you’re going really slow and just feeling. Do you like firmer touch? Do you like more gentle touch? And this is a way to feel safe with touch again. And you can also then communicate with your partner or partners what type of touch feels best to you.
So for instance, some people like fingertips. Some people like fingernails. Like that scratching sensation. Versus like the fingertips. So it’s very different for every person. So it’s being able to communicate to your partner and say, Hey, you know, I really like this area of my body touched or I really like my scalp scratched or I really like, you know, when you trace my arms and you trace the inside of my legs and do long strokes or, you know, being able to just talk about what type of touch feels safe and pleasurable.
Um, can just be a positive thing.
[00:39:06] Paige Bond, LMFT: Mm.
So good because I feel like people get so wrapped up into being afraid that if they say that they do or don’t like this type of touch that they’re going to hurt their partner’s feelings where It’s really robbing your partner of the opportunity of knowing how to please you better.
and I really love this idea of the long self massage to try to figure out what areas actually do feel good to you because I can imagine for someone who’s been so resistant or revolted by touch that they’re not really going to know what does feel good to them. Um, so I, I love that. That’s such a great exercise.
[00:39:45] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah, it’s very nurturing, it’s like self connecting, and um, you know, from there it can evolve into letting your partner know what you like, you can do back rubs for each other, foot rubs for each other, and then it can even evolve into talking about sexual pleasure needs, or sexual desires, or. You know, it can even be, when I feel you massage this area, I start to feel a little bit of heat in my genital area.
Like, you can literally verbalize to your partner what’s going on inside your body. Cause they don’t know, you know, or you could have a safe word. You could say, you know, I need to just take a break for a minute or. You know, and say, you know, I’m actually really afraid of this happening or this memory is coming up for me and you can talk about what you can do together to stay in the present moment because that’s where we can most enjoy pleasure is in the present moment.
[00:40:37] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, and anxiety can put us in the future. Depression can put us in the past. And so if we’re in those separate places, we’re not there with our partner or partners.
[00:40:48] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yes, yeah, and I think that’s why the 45 to 90 minutes of foreplay is so important is because it does give the mind that chance to really arrive.
Maybe in the first 5, 10, 15 minutes, there is, Oh, did I do the laundry? Or maybe I should be packing the kids lunches, or did I pay the bill or, you know, when’s my hair stylist appointment or like it goes on and on, right? And so receiving touch and exchanging touch for 45 to 90 minutes really builds that body connection and that heat, that excitement, you know, that mental connection.
It’s really, I think it gives the body time and the mind’s time to become, you know, synergetic or aligned or kind of get on the same page together. Um, And relax like the mind almost has to kind of set back and relax a little bit and we almost have to go into a whole nother fantasy world with our partners to enjoy sexual activity.
[00:41:45] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. And, you know, I want to speak to like, The difference, you know, needing 45 to 90 minutes for vulva owners, women, and then for penis owners, only needing about like 8 to 10, 4 to 8, right? You can tell me if this has ever happened in your office. I can imagine someone maybe getting frustrated of having to put in four times maybe the amount of energy in preparing their partner for that kind of foreplay.
Like maybe getting frustrated of like, Oh, you know, I can just do it this fast. Like, why can’t they do it that fast? And so how do you work with partners where you get one who is frustrated about having to go longer like that.
[00:42:34] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: That’s a wonderful point you brought up. so part of it is offering education.
So like where that Uh, desire to rush is coming from, sometimes people have sexual performance anxiety, where they’re afraid of losing their erection. So they’re like, I just have to have sex right now. And I’m like, okay, uh, we, we don’t want to do that just so quickly in this like state of frenzy. Um, but there is a natural anxiety, they’re like, I might not stay hard for any longer so we just have to put it in right now. And like their partner is just not like their body’s just not ready and it’s uncomfortable.
So we, we process that anxiety and, uh, we talk about the importance of warming up a partner’s body so that they’re satisfied because, um, If a part, if let’s say a female is not satisfied, they’re going to not want to have sex much, it’s going to be paired to a negative, painful, you know, more of an obedience or I have to do this on the chore list and that’s not passion, right?
So, um, we want to have both people emotionally and mentally connected with each other through touch. and also we talk about how to tune in. So let’s say a. Male partner, for instance, is saying, you know, what, am I supposed to do this comment? What am I supposed to do for 45 to 90 minutes? Because so often, males are taught from adolescent age on like masturbate as quickly as possible.
You know, just get it done with, be, be quick. Make sure no one walks in, make sure no one sees you, right? Like this is a dirty taboo thing that you’re doing, which it’s not. But they’re groomed often to like make it quick and like there’s shame inherently around essentially enjoying pleasure. So there can be an enjoyment around the build of desire.
So, noticing like, you know, what does it feel like to kiss your partner? Like, what’s their tongue doing? Like, do you want to nibble on their lip? Like, do you want to kiss their neck and then nibble on their ear? Do you, like, listen to the sounds they’re making? What would it be like to caress parts of their body and like see what sounds then they make?
Sometimes with couples, you know, it can be fun to do, like, a verbal roleplay or an imaginary scenario, that kind of feeds off of some kinks or some desires, or power dynamics. But, you know, you can create an imaginary story together. You know, maybe it’s something you might never do, or maybe it’s something you would do, but You know, hey, like, we’re in the mountains, and it’s just the two of us, and maybe that’s your partner’s, like, dream fantasy, or maybe it’s, hey, we’re at a sex club, and, you know, everyone’s watching us, and you’re talking about this in the safety of your bedroom, and it can be a form of foreplay.
Um, so having an imaginary scenario can be really fun, um, and you can play around with seeing how your partner’s body It gets warmed up to, to your touch because we want to create, uh, an equal sense of desire. So if you just go right to touching your partner’s clitoris when you haven’t even done foreplay, it’s not going to be pleasant.
The clitoris and vulva area take about 45 to 90 minutes to become engorged with blood or that, that whole area becomes, you know, filled with blood and there is a. of pulsation, there is a heat, there is a wetness, there is this desire, you want your partner to be like craving touchdown there by the time that you go to touch that area.
So maybe that means doing a breast and nipple massage for 20, 30, 40 minutes and, you know, playing around with a nipple orgasm before even touching the clitoris and taking time for oral sex, right? So often oral sex is like Two minutes and it’s like, okay, well, what if we put a blanket down, get really comfortable, get your neck comfortable, prop up with pillows if needed and, you know, provide 15 to 20 minutes of oral sex and see what that does.
We’re just exploring. We don’t have anywhere to be. We don’t have a checkbox to get to. We don’t have to make anyone orgasm. If it, if, if orgasming happens or multiple orgasms happen, it’s just a byproduct of being present and enjoying each other. Um, we don’t have to get to penetrative sex, we don’t have to have a hard penis to be a good lover.
if there’s any anxiety that comes up, see what you can do mentally, you know. For some people it’s saying, you know, I’m with a safe partner. My partner really cares about me. Sometimes hearing those things in your mind and saying them to yourself can be really calming. You may also want to say out loud, you know, I see the light on your cheeks and it’s just, it’s just such a beautiful moment right now.
Arriving in the present moment, right? There’s nothing you have to do to perform. You want to take the pressure off of performance, pressure off of having a hard penis, pressure off of having it be a certain way. There is no one successful sexual experience. A successful sexual experience is about You and your partner both verbalizing pleasure, communicating, of exchanging emotions, of being vulnerable with each other, of bonding emotionally, of touching each other in ways that may be new, and then you talk about it. You’re essentially coming closer and holding each other close in this sexual experience.
So, you know, you might say, hey, I really want to try this sex toy on you, and they might say, Okay, you know, you could try it. Let me, you know, you communicate about it. Or, hey, I really want to use this sex toy today. There’s this beautiful emotional intimacy and an emotional safety and security, that supports a fulfilling, pleasurable erotic sex life.
and sometimes a partner who might be more connected to their sexuality, encourages their partner, you know, that can be a beautiful way to grow together. Um, and we all have different things that we like. And we all have different things that turn us on. Right? There’s no one, one thing, right?
A lot of the times the couples will come and they’re just like, they’re like, how do we have normal sex? I’m like, well, normal is a setting on your washing machine. That’s a normal cycle, but it’s not. Every one of us has different sexual fantasies, different things that lead us to feel sexually insecure.
Um, different things help us feel sexually confident, you know, and so it’s about communicating. It’s about saying, hey, I really need more of this or I really love it when you do that. And we all want to be desired in this way. And sometimes I work with couples that when we start talking about sex, you know, I make it a really safe space, but they’re just like, they’ll whisper the word sex or like they’ll, it’ll be, it can be something you’re shy to talk about and be like.
You know, oh, wow, we’re really talking about this, but it’s, it helps grow this area of your relationship and it’s, you know, it’s something where we talk about, um, you know, so often we grow up and Being even punished for asking about sex or being blamed if we’re a victim of sexual assault or sexual trauma.
So we have a lot we have to unpack that can play a role in having a satisfying, erotic sex life.
[00:49:25] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, I mean, you have to imagine there’s completely different people from completely different backgrounds and experiences. Trying to come together and make music in the sexual world, like, it’s like, yeah, that’s tough.
There needs to be a lot of communication. You were so right. People really don’t talk about this shit.
[00:49:47] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Oh yeah. And oftentimes when we grow up, like we try to, and then we’re like, we’re ashamed by our parents or caregivers, or we’re told like abstinence is the way to go or, you know. Or
[00:49:59] Paige Bond, LMFT: there’s a double standard.
[00:50:01] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. And then even too, when I work with couples where there’s been infidelity. That’s a painful trauma, a relational trauma, right? And sometimes people are getting their sexual needs met by someone outside the relationship, and there’s so many pieces to recovering from infidelity.
But it can be such a heartbreaking loss. Um, but people can recover. You can work through it. But it does mean talking about both emotional intimacy and what was missing emotionally and rebuilding that security and trust. And then also honestly looking and communicating about sexual needs and what does sex mean and how do you both like to, you know, receive pleasure and how do we connect with that erotic side.
And, you know, for a lot of people where maybe there was a lot of sexual shame and guilt or there was a lot of anxiety or You know, even growing up, um, with very traditional views, like, Oh, as a female, like, you always have to say yes to your partner, even if it’s painful. And you have to, like, grin and bear it, and just bite your tongue, and like, this is your duty, um, as a wife.
You know, sometimes we grow up with those messages. And so, being able to explore erotic books, um, erotic podcasts, erotic novels, um, I think a lot of times we heal from even watching movies or reading about other characters, You know, when I used to do a lot of play therapy with kids, we’d do bibliotherapy, so like if a child went through a divorce, we’d read books about two homes, and dinosaurs divorcing, and you know, how dinosaurs who are divorced navigate the holidays, and it was like eye opening, it’s a beautiful way to self reflect, so for adults, reading, you know, to get more in touch with that erotic side, reading erotic books can help you find out what so much.
You enjoy through the character is that you’re empathizing with in the story, and it can be a safe thing to do to
[00:51:56] Paige Bond, LMFT: and just discover what they probably didn’t know existed before, right? There’s so much out there that we don’t even know, right? Because it’s just endless of the things that people create, right?
Um, I feel like we need to have a part two talking about so much other stuff.
[00:52:16] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: I don’t know. I’m so passionate. I know. Oh my goodness, the time. But yeah, um, we can definitely do a part two if you want to. But yes, I want to empower people. It’s okay to talk about sex and it’s okay to have fantasies and explore supporting each other in experiencing pleasure.
[00:52:29] Paige Bond, LMFT: I love how you were so normalizing on so many of these experiences, normalizing on, uh, pleasure being such an important part of the relationship and like having the main keys being communication and being present with your partner.
so I can imagine since I got a lot of education out of this episode that I’m sure listeners are too and they want to hear more from you. So where do you hang out? Where can people find you?
[00:52:59] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Yeah. So I work kind of with couples specifically or people in relationships that want support, but primarily with couples of all kinds.
Um, you can book your free phone consultation to work with me at wisdom withinct.com. That’s wisdomwithinct. com, um, and I can kind of figure out what’s going on if you’re stuck in a cycle of sexual rejection, loneliness, um, or even sexual avoidance and just struggling with sexual desire issues or feeling unsatisfied sexually and we can start to figure out how to help you both give and receive pleasure and feel supported both emotionally and sexually in terms of intimacy.
I’m also on Instagram and, um, Facebook. What’s your handle? It is @wisdomwithinct. the website’s the best. It’s so fun. It’s, like, so amazing to work with couples and, um, start to help them prioritize what I call their couple bubble. Their couple bubble gets to grow and flourish.
[00:54:01] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yay. Well, I’m sure if people felt really good about this episode and safely held like I did, as just interviewing you, I can’t imagine the experience actually getting to work with you. You also have a podcast too, right?
[00:54:15] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Oh, yes, I do. You’re right. Can you tell listeners about it? Yes, absolutely. So I have a podcast. It is a free resource on Apple and Spotify. It is called All Things Love and Intimacy. It gives you tools and tips and techniques for rebuilding and creating emotional bonding and emotional security, which is a foundational building block of sexual intimacy, sexual pleasure, expressing your sexual desires, talking about fantasies, and really opening up the conversation around sexual connection in your relationship and long term marriage. So, that is all things love and intimacy on Spotify and Apple.
[00:54:57] Paige Bond, LMFT: Perfect. And so, if you’re listening to this, this is just a taste. You go way more in depth on that, so, um, Katie, thank you so much for being here, being a guest today. I learned so much from you and I just love what you’re sharing with the world, so thank you so much.
[00:55:13] Katie Ziskind, LMFT: Thank you so much. It was so awesome to be here, Paige.
[00:55:17]Paige Bond, LMFT: All right, listeners, I’ll have all of Katie’s links in the show notes so that you can go check out all her stuff. Until next time, catch you on the other side.
